**What if the knowledge we need most for the future is something we’ve spent centuries forgetting?**Meet Victor Steffensen, Tagalaka man, author, filmmaker, musician and co-founder of the Living Knowledge Network. For decades, Victor has worked with Indigenous communities in Australia and around the world to revive traditional ways of reading and caring for Country. His new book,
From why the climate crisis may actually be an identity crisis to how Western science and Indigenous Knowledge Systems can work together and the deceptively simple idea that everything we create should help nature flourish - this is a conversation about Indigenous knowledge as you might never have heard it before. Not as something that belongs to a select few, but as the wisdom that underpins us all.
You can listen to the full conversation on our podcast, watch it on Youtube, or read the transcript below.
When you look at a landscape like for home here in Australia, I can see the loss of identity within those systems. Places that should have native grasses, there’s no grasses there anymore. There’s just leaf litter on the ground or just bare dirt. There are no animals, there’s not a sound within those ecosystems, not even a lizard scurrying through the leaves. And sometimes flat out finding an ant in some places that have been so degraded for so long from extraction and practices that have not been good for those places.
And also taking people out of those areas from the first days of taking people off Country. The loss of identity is the problem and restoring identity is the solution. And restoring the identity of our landscapes is the most important part of restoring our own identities as well. Because with the way technology is going, with the way the world is going I think that’s something that really grounds us and we need something to ground us.
Victor, I finished your book, The Knowledge, quite early yesterday morning. And over these last 24 hours, it’s been less about what I learned from the book and more about how the book made me feel. And it really made me feel settled, and it made me feel included, and it actually made me feel really, hopeful.
There’s a line where you say, “We are all Indigenous to the planet.”
It’s sometimes very easy to say that you respect Indigenous knowledge, but maybe it’s not something that you can be part of. But you have this amazing piece toward the end of the book, and it’s all about us going back to our ancestral roots. And if we go back to our ancestral homelands, then it’s less about learning and it’s more like a remembering.
That’s right. We live in a world of separation and right from the very beginnings of colonisation. It happened in Europe and all over the world not just in Australia or in any other place. And when you look at people in Australia, they think, “Oh, Aboriginal Australia’s that’s the only Indigenous. Everyone else is not.”
Like, yeah, it’s true when you’re on someone’s land they’re not from this place, but they’re Indigenous from somewhere else. They come from somewhere. They’re all human beings. They’re all a product of nature.
Each different continent has a different colonization process. You know, when you look at Australia, 240 years now or getting closer to 250 or then you look back to, America, it’s over 400 years, and then you go other places it’s even further and further. That has been something that’s covered the world and has been something that’s changed the world over time.
And when the Earth starts to get sick or when things start to happen, it’s a slow process. It’s a slow transition. And slowly but surely people have been disconnected and disconnected from each other. And that separation has been a powerful tool that’s been used in colonisation processes all over the world, separating people.
And even today they still separate people. We see that separation everywhere where people go, “Oh, that’s Indigenous and we’re not.” That is sickness within our world and it’s something that doesn’t allow us to see what’s really going on with our nature with the system that overrules us with the way we are and it turns us on each other and it’s not a good thing.
And if people see themselves as, “Oh, I’m not Indigenous. I’m not, like, connected to that. That’s not me,” they’ve definitely lost their memory and lost, that through their process of their generations and where they are today. And it’s such a, it’s such a disadvantage because that is a loss of identity.
And we’re not talking about the wars and we’re not talking about, you know, the things that have happened in the past, Everyone’s had their feuds and across all cultures for beginning of time. But we’re talking about that connection and that rose within that really connects us to our, to people, to their place, and also people with each other.
We’ve lost our way. And, in the world that we live in with the decline that we’re seeing and the challenges ahead we’re going to need at least a thousand-year vision, 500-year minimal if we’re going to restore this planet. It’s not something that can be done overnight. It’s not something that can be done by just planting trees everywhere.
It really needs to go down to the depth of understanding who we are and understanding the really fine detail in how we look after this, all the different parts of the world in a way that restores its identity as close as possible that aligns with restoring our own.
I hope this isn’t a spoiler alert. But one of my favourite moments in the book is the moment it, was almost like a spiritual experience, when you had the realisation that the work you’d been doing in Australia around cultural burning, that actually your work was going to be much bigger than that.
And, it came when a woman came up to you after one of your fire burning talks would you mind sharing that story?
I’ve already shared the story on paper, so people, will be reading that story.
When I finished that talk years ago, that room was full of people. There were more than 100 people in that room and, I did my talk and then I walked down the stairs in the front of the stage. And I spotted that lady sitting with her husband and, we made eye contact straight away, and then she just reached out for me and grabbed me and said, “Hey, I’ve got to tell you something.”
And I said, “Yeah, what is it?”
And she goes, “There was a woman standing next to you on the stage.”
And this hadn’t been the first time I’d had this experience.
She said to me “She was standing on stage and she was telling me something to tell you.” And straight away I thought, “Oh, it’s, you know, my nana.” You know, a la lot of people would think that straight away.and I thought, “Oh, it’s from my Indigenous side from Australia,” because I’m in Australia and I was talking Indigenous knowledge from Australia. And, and so immediately that’s where my mind was trained.
Then she says, “It’s a lady that’s from your father’s side.” which was the Steffensen, which up in the Norwegians, you know, Sweden, up in that part of the world. And she said, “Oh, she’s got a message to tell you.
The first message was to lighten up, and I took that on straight away, and that was quite funny. Because I was so serious back then. I was a lot younger and taking it so seriously, and I was really angry at the government and system which when you’re young you’re hot-headed a bit more. And so I took that on board.
The second thing she said was that there’s a knowledge even more deeper than what you’re talking about and it’s a greater knowledge.
And so from that point I went out and thought about it. Knowledge greater? What can be greater than, one of the oldest cultures in the world that I’m talking about here in Australia? And immediately me thinking that way was imprisoned the way I had been brought up to think that, hey, only.. It’s only this big. It’s only comes from this place.
And then I realised years later thinking about that and I’ve traveled around and went to different places and looked at rock art sites in different parts of the world and then I realised that ah, the answer to that riddle, it’s the knowledge that underpins us all.
And that’s when I was like, ah, I need to get out. I need to try and see if we can demonstrate this knowledge in other parts of the world, learn more about it and see if it’s true and see if that can be right. And, it pretty much, it is.
And when I was writing that story in a book, I thought, oh these people are going to think this fella’s talking about spirits and all and about he’s crazy or something like that. But you know what? They need to hear it. And we’re in a time and place right now where you need to hear these things. And, so I just wrote it because that is part of the journey and it’s part of the journey to try and find, the work that I’m here to do.
Victor, I really wanna hear a little bit more about the work that you’ve been doing in other places, which really is about this bigger picture of the knowledge. And I’m curious specifically to to hear about your experience of seeing those knowledge systems rub up against Western colonial knowledge or Western colonial methods.
Those two things often feel like they’re in opposition, right? But also when they rub up against each other, that creates friction, and sometimes friction can be generative and, and can create new things too.
** **Yeah. People say this a lot, Indigenous knowledge and Western knowledge coming together and those things and it’s a bit of a cliche sometimes when you hear them say that all the time.
And all the years of doing this work and applying all this stuff onto Country and even now we’re doing research ourselves, monitoring and testing soils and things like that - what it shows is that it validates that old knowledge system. When we apply that practice and all the positive things come back and then the Country responds the right way, that’s a validation on its own.
So when Western science comes along it’s a new knowledge system. It’s young. It’s so young. And when it comes to nature, it’s trying to find what’s true. It doesn’t have a lot of experience, specifically around practice.
So when I look at all the science work, I see that they’re just validating what was already there. And so they match up in a way of, “Oh, yes, you’re right ‘cause we can see through our findings and our tests that it’s actually coming to that point.”
And I see so many papers that are written, they go, “Ah Indigenous knowledge is good for this, and, or fire is good for that.” And I go, “Ah, yeah, you’re trying to work that out now.” Or, “The big fish is bad for, pregnant women, because of the mercury.” Our people knew that through food laws a long time ago. And even in the diet area too, and I see the similarities in traditional food laws and what modern doctors are working out with foods so I see that validation that comes from that.
And, that’s where I, see the importance of Western knowledge in a sense that it’s a language. And it’s a language that needs to be supporting old knowledge systems so that it can help people to understand true knowledge and where things are at.
But when I see Western practice and scientists on their own and not connected to Indigenous knowledge, that’s what’s formed how Western knowledge burns at times of year. They’re still trying to work that out. Their practices aren’t really aligned to how we’re practicing and that is something that’s driven by policy and driven by control of that process.
Still today in Australia we haven’t had the ability to demonstrate this knowledge base and the practices on a big scale to really demonstrate its worth and so we can’t even do that because the system won’t let us. And so it’s the system there that really is getting in the way of what really can be happening here in terms of rebuilding our knowledge.
‘Cause I believe that Western science working with traditional knowledge systems can help us uncover old knowledge systems and really give us more depth and understanding of who we are and of the planet we live on. But it’s that system that Western science belongs to then that won’t allow that process to happen and then it gets to separate people. Science becomes, you know, some people, “Oh, I believe science. I don’t believe traditional knowledge. I don’t do that.” That separation comes back in again. Because otherwise if science was pure, it would allow us to demonstrate. It would listen to us and gives us more opportunities. Does that make sense?
I really like it. What comes out of this is that science is just understanding or the naming and that’s great. It’s really good at that, but there’s so much more to this.
I can see Amy’s filled with like 1,000 questions here, but can you quickly tell us a story about something that you learnt when you were overseas from your various visits to Canada, Europe or the United States. What have you seen?
** **You’re always learning new things, you know? Like that’s the first I wanna say that, But what I’m learning when I travel is that commonality and those connections. And that’s where the dots join. And that learning process of seeing those dots join is like, “Ah, wow, I can see now. Ah, I can see how this relates to this …”
Can you tell us specifically, like an example of where you’ve seen those dots connect?
Yeah. So when they teach me about a tree, for example, and their relationship with that tree, and what they use that tree for and how important it is to them. I can see tree, ah, that’s the same as our tree.
And then when I look at one like the fir tree, as I say in the book, and I see the bark is exactly the same as our iron bark tree at home. And then I look at the stones and the way the soils are around it sitting in and how it’s very similar to our tree back home in terms of our iron barks.
And then when I see the fire and what it done the wrong time of the year and how the land responded to that wrong temperature and that wrong fire within that same soil type the same response within our tree back at home. And so what the land is teaching me through those similarities through landscapes that stuff is wow.
And Western science might look at it and go, “Oh, that’s a pine tree and it’s a eucalypt. You’re crazy.” But they don’t see the indicators. They don’t see all those other parts that, show those similarities.
Just like how we’re different people around the world. We all look different but we all have a lot of commonalities and similarities as people and it’s the same within trees and things like that.
So when they talk about plants, they’ll go, “Oh yeah, we use this plant for sore throats and we boil up the leaf this way and we apply it that way.” And I go, “Oh yeah, we got a plant exactly the same and we do the same thing.”
And so those commonalities are are the things that teach me so much because it allows me to elaborate more. It always expanding. It never stops. It’s like the universe Because it never ends. I’ll never be able to fit it all in, in one lifetime. But at the end of the day, it just keeps going and it’s those findings and learnings that excite me the most.
Tell us about the Knowledge Triangle?
I put together the Knowledge Triangle around a fire in the sand one night with all the old people. Back then I was recording knowledge with cameras with the old people and recording plants and trees and there was a process in that to make sure that everything was captured and everything was complete.
The Knowledge Triangle is really is the process of life. And it is the method and the design as well in how things are done. Indigenous knowledge is a practical language. It’s not something that’s discussed in a meeting room
And so the Knowledge Triangle it shows life within fire: which is oxygen, heat and fuel. And when you look at us as humans: it’s food, water and oxygen. And those three points keep us alive so it’s a living process.
And when I demons…