What's up party people? My name is Sunny Ray. This is the Sunny Ray Show. I had quite a few interviews today. This will be the last one for the day. My guest, her name is April White. She's the founder and CEO of Trust Relations. So, she's going to be explaining why traditional PR models no longer work and why credibility must begin with a company must begin with what a company does, not just what it says. April, with that said, how are you doing?
I'm great. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.
So, talk to me. What are you building? And and I guess like what problem are you solving? And what what's Trust Relations about? I found the story quite intriguing.
Yeah. so, I think everybody is a little bit fed up with PR. I think in general everyone has started to associate PR with sort of fakery, right? Like people are just out there with spin and they're saying things that are untrue. but, it's still a very, important aspect of any brand building because within marketing, it's the only piece that's earned, right? The rest of them you pay for it or you're saying something about yourself that you want people to believe, but with earned media coverage, which is, you know, falls in the PR category, it's really about did you deserve like were you worthy enough to be in the news? Were you worthy enough to have an interview on this podcast, right? Were you are you interesting enough, do you have enough to say as a thought leader, etc. And so, I think in the past, there was a lot of sort of just assumption that brands could just preach from on a high and make everybody believe with their you know, magic fairy dust and their capital that whatever they wanted the people to believe was true. But with social media and how things have evolved, that's not true anymore, right? People are skeptic they're more skeptical. the public and consumers and customers in general fall slightly more into a journalist category, like, "Okay, I don't know. You said that, but is that true?" And so, you need evidence, right? And so, what trust relations is about is making sure that you're doing what you say you're doing, right? You have to be doing it before you can say you're doing it. And it's also very important that you're you have evidence, right? You need proof points, you need to show people that what you're saying about the company or the brand is true. And you need to just demonstrate it, right? It's like anybody who studies storytelling knows that you show, don't tell. And it's very much the same, I think, nowadays with PR. So, that's where I decided, "Okay, well, I think maybe PR needs an you know, a just new premise in general, right? It's not cuz it's coming from this Bernays-like propaganda history. But unfortunately, that comes with a lot of baggage. And so, it just needs a refresh. And so, that's where trust relations came from. And it started as like, "Okay, that's interesting." Cuz in the tech world, anybody who's in the tech world knows that means you have to establish trust between two networks or two systems, you know, before they connect. And it's that's really what the promise is, right? Like, your brand needs to connect with your consumer, your customer in a real way so that you guys have shared trust. And that's really what it's about. So, it's sort of I just yeah, it's really I just think PR is sort of it needs more than a rebrand. It needs to be readjusted in terms of the approach, right? Like it just needs a It's just like pivot. Like let's just do what you say you're doing. not to say that brands in the past haven't been doing that, but I just think people got really skeptical and there was a lot of there were a lot of moments of taking advantage of people in terms of just Okay, well, this is a big movement right now and you know, there's a social change movement. We're going to jump on the bandwagon and say that we're part of it, but like at what point did you ever actually support that community or like that you know, that cause, right? Like what point Like this is news to me, right? So, it's like you have to just If that's something that's important to your brand, just make it part of the ethos. Just make it part of the ongoing, you know, structure of the company. so that that's really what we're up to and helping brands not only with the messaging, but if there is operationally something they can do to enhance what they want to be known for, I also provide, you know, some feedback on that. Okay, well, maybe think about doing XYZ thing to show that you're doing that, right? Like it's it doesn't have to just be about talking. It's It should be Okay, well, if this is where we're going because this is a value that's true to the company, how do we show it? So, let's put it in action.
Yeah, that really resonates. So, just to slow down a little bit, April, you spent years at Weber Shandwick, is it Edelman?
Yeah.
Along. So, which standard which standard operating procedures did you I guess like disagree with most and like, why did nobody fix them?
So, those are two good questions. the reason they didn't fix them became obvious to me after I started my own firm, which I'll get into in a second. The sort of the things that were the biggest problems in my mind were that it was a lot of just sort of old mad Men era like agency standard, you know, operating procedure of just sort of everything rolling downhill like the executives are sort of "What are they doing?" Like, "How much are they getting paid?" And then there's, you know, the junior people straight out of college who are doing like all of the work, which doesn't make sense because you know, for example, I would be a junior person that I'm working with MasterCard and Sempra Energy and, you know, Raytheon or whatever, right? And it's like, "Why am I the one Like, if they knew the bulk of the work was being done by somebody with this little experience, they'd be horrified, right? Like, they're paying X amount of dollars per month, right? And it's like, the senior people are barely involved and the junior people are doing all the work, right?" And that So, I was like, "This is crazy." And then the other thing that was crazy and not crazy I shouldn't say crazy I don't want to criticize too broadly, but it also felt like there was a disconnect between the amount the of the retainer they were paying and the amount of work they were getting, and there would be this sort of assumption, "Okay, well, this company's happy enough this month. We've got them enough placements. It doesn't matter that they're paying 20 a month. just move on to this other, you know, other account because they're struggling even though they're paying a quarter or whatever or half of they you know, it's so there it didn't felt like the it didn't feel like the amount of work they were getting was commensurate with the amount of money they were paying or there wasn't any transparency at least at the junior level there wasn't a lot of transparency about how the money that was invested by that company was actually being allocated and used to its fullest, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Other than that, it was just like junior people working their tail off, you know, with their hair on fire and like.
Hoping that they could get it right, So, it was a lot It's just a lot of that.
I wonder how much of the world actually just operates that way, you know? Like off the back of like interns and like summer students and co-op students.
I know. Yeah. So, it's.
Yeah, but it is kind of weird. yeah, you Sorry, you were going to say.
And I didn't I mean, I was like this idealist, you know, who just thought like, oh, this is like it shouldn't be done this way. Then, when I started my own firm, I was like, okay, well, that the reason they do that is because it's a services industry and you can't Unlike in a tech company or other industries, you can't create a solution and then scale it and then just create profit based on all the additional people that are using the thing that you already invested in, right? With a services industry, it's always based on the amount of time. It's not like you can just Okay, we, you know, they may like there it's So, that's why the junior people are used at a firm that big because if the overhead includes, you know, a huge building in Manhattan and half of the clients' rent is going to a fancy conference room and a fancy office setting,.
Like, you know, all the bells and whistles and the senior people and blah, It's like well, of course that means that you're going to have somebody that's you know, probably in over their head doing the bulk of the work.
Yeah.
That's the way you make a profit, right? And then they have to report back to investors. And if they're public they're part of IPG etc. It's like so it is like a I was a little bit sort of naive I think when I was young cuz I didn't understand why they were doing that and so I was more critical then than I would be now right cuz now it's like okay well I get why they have to do like that makes total sense but also it doesn't but it's still not a great use of the budget which is why I made my firm fully remote because I didn't want I thought well why are they paying for this fancy office but you know there's no like we're all just emailing or calling journalists independently anyway like that you know every once in a blue moon you need to brainstorm or you just like you're going to slack somebody and ask them for a reporter contact that you don't have whatever publication but like you don't need to be it in fact I found it distracting when I was in the office setting cuz people would be like hey yo like who's that person at Forbes that you know what I was like I was just focusing like I you know I was just in the middle of like you know and then you have to recalibrate whatever you're working on so I actually found it to be detrimental rather than helpful but that's also how my brain I mean I'm very sort of just like I fo- I like to focus so that I found that confusing but I'm not confusing but just.
I think I've been working from a home for like 10 no maybe 15 years it's been a while but I did meet somebody today on one of my interviews he's building a company it's like one of those like work like those workplaces like those group you know where people like get together like those I forget the name of that one that was like really big and anyways you know what I'm talking about and he was just since he's selling me on why or how important it is for people to be together.
About like a WeWork or something?
Yeah that's what I was looking for WeWork but it's kind of like that but different and he was selling me on like how you know we all need to be together and like teams that do perform better and I was kind of nodding along then I'm also like I'm working from home for the last 15 years. Like I have no problems like connecting with like-minded people. Hey, also you said this you went on your own and immediately had more clients than you could handle. So like where were most where were those like first clients actually coming from?
Some of them were people I'd worked with in the past but some of it I can't I found on Upwork. but that was back when Upwork was slightly less crowded. Now I don't know that would work like it did back then.
It was.
It was a little bit more open-ended then and then you know those people will lead to more people but it was just one of those things where at one point I had more clients than I could juggle which is the upside you know that that's what you want as a freelancer but I also thought well maybe I should use this as an opportunity to go kind of put my money where my mouth is and sort of the you know the ethos of Trust Relations. I will wanted to do it better. I always kind of feel like if you see something wrong in the I mean this is very sort of Buddhist like be the change you want to see in the world, right? But if there's something in the world that you see that needs to be changed or corrected or done differently. I feel like it's a little bit your quote unquote assignment from the universe, right? Like this keeps sounding woo but it's like if you see it and you have the capacity to change it just change it. Don't be critical, right? Like don't sit back and just criticize everybody just okay, this needs to be done differently. Great. Let's figure out a way to do it differently rather than you know just forward thrust instead of just sort of like idling in negativity. So it was really a lot about like how do I just build the thing that I wish existed so that other people have a place to work that I wish I had So it was a little bit selfless and ended up being at times like almost like a I don't know. It was selfless to the point of being like self-sacrificial.
But it was worth it because you know, I wanted to create this thing that was beautiful that embodied the vision I had. So but it was definitely I mean it was you know, starting I mean starting any I any of startup founder knows that it's it can be brutal at the beginning especially if you're bootstrapping. So.
So yeah, so story doing to match the storytelling. Yes, I mean what did you watch happen that made that rule non-negotiable for you?
That's a good question, too. Really what happens with reporters and this was rough on me because I actually started my career as a journalist and so I was already skeptical. but what happens is if you're when you switch to with PR like I did and then you're pitching a story on behalf of a client and then the journalist is going to ask the hard questions inevitably and if you're the one pitching the story and the client doesn't have the proof points and you know that you're full of BS, it's like vomit. Like it's just like It's like just please make me not do this job because this is so uncomfortable. So really what it came from with my sense of like my own sense of like morality and sort of just being truthful. which feels like a weird thing like how does that fit with PR? But that's exactly why trust relations exist, right? And it So it really came from this just sort of icky feeling of knowing if you're pitching something that the client wants you to pitch and the journalist is going to ask the hard question and you already know that you don't have a good answer. It just makes you want to crawl under the desk and just like, you know, rock yourself to like oblivion for the rest of the day. It's like, so really it came from this like, "Oh god, please don't make me do that." And so it that sort of led to, "Okay, I only want to work with clients that are doing the thing or have the proof points or have the standards or have, you know, are matching the values and the story the storytelling." and then helping them make sure then it evolved into, "Okay, how do I help them make sure that they're showing that they are in fact doing the thing that they want to be known for. If that makes sense.
Yeah, totally. And have you ever told a potential client they were not ready for press yet? Like what and what happened I guess after you said it?
So yes. usually I wouldn't tell them that they what, you know, a lot of times it's like you're not ready you're not I don't think you're quite there yet, right? and then I'd give I would just give them suggestions of how do you what is it that you could do better to show the thing? so I mean this is kind of a silly example, but there was a client in Manhattan that had these like really cool couches they were selling and they wanted to be known for sustainability because what they were doing is every time they sold a couch they'd pick up the couch and donate it, but nowhere on the website did it say that and there was nowhere to sign up for that process and it was just sort of like this behind-the-scenes cool thing they were doing, which is really cool. But I said, "Well, you need to, you know, why don't we work together once you've put that in like make that a central feature, right? Like put that on the website, have a sign-up where people can sign, you know, people that need a couch or, you know, college kids or poor people or whatever, like make it part of the like make it an operational thing, you know? And then, boom, we have a huge story. so, I mean, that's a silly example, but like it wasn't that what they were doing wasn't there, it just wasn't caught a fire, wasn't like it hadn't fully congealed into something visible that other people would be able to see that when you pitch to a reporter cuz if they went to the website, they'd be like, well, I don't see anything about this couch thing. Like what the what like what.
So, it's just like simple things like that just every once in a while obviously I'm not going to name it, but it was like you know, wasn't it was like what you're doing is amazing, just make it more visible and then we're there. And let's get, you know, let's do it. So, but I do sometimes I'm also honest if people are just not if financially they're not fluid enough to do PR, I will also tell them like I mean, I think you're going to find this too stressful because if you need the money you're investing back in the bank within, say, 90 days or whatever it is for your cash flow purposes, then PR is not a good fit either because it's not an immediate like bang for your buck, right? So, I will I'll be really honest about that, too. which is not That's different, but that's important for startups.
Can you tell me about the trust equations platform in plain terms? Like what are you trying to make measurable that nobody's kind of managed to measure?
So, this is I told you I this is sort of something in the works that's not I haven't publicly debuted yet, but I'm working on.
Oh, are we not supposed to talk about it?
No, you're I will briefly talk about it, but I'm still like I am still figuring it out, but basically, I don't know if you ever took critical thinking philosophy class or anything like that with the logic equations. but, really I'm trying to make Okay, maybe not. In philosophy, though, there's like you have to.
Thinking means, I think, but I don't know if I've taken a full course in it, yeah.
In philosophy, they have, you know, equations that where you can verify the you know, sort of the reality of an argument. and they actually have a whole symbol system for etc. I'm not going to get into it. and I like the idea of translating that into a narrative, but I also think it's a little bit cuz your reaction is the best example, like, what the hell are you talking about?
It just It leans a little bit like too heady for the you know, but I don't think most customers I mean, I like the idea I think theoretically it's really cool, but I think customers will be like, can you just what are you doing for me for what how much money? Like, they're just not going to care about So, I'm translating that into something that's a lot easy like a lot simpler, but sort of okay, how does where's your premise? where are the proof points, and then how do we explain it in a way that the audience cares about? And speaks to what their actual needs are. And so, it's really like, how do we that's the that's sort of the equation of it is how do we take that sort of you know, the efficacy of an argument from philosophical like I said, we're not going to get into it, critical thinking, but.
How do you take that and then just make it something that's a little bit more air gopped and also just sort of feels like they're going to understand it quickly, but also still marries the principles of that to narrative. So, that's what I'm working on. I don't know if that I don't See, this is why I'm on it, cuz I'm still trying to figure out how do you explain.
How do you explain it simply about.
No, it was really funny, cuz you were like so did you learn about this thing called critical thinking? And I'm like well, I mean, I like to think I'm a critical thinker. And then my face gave away that I have no idea what you're talking about. And then you're like, oh, you're not really you don't know about critical thinking. But wait, like hold on here.
No, I don't mean that. I just mean like there's like a whole.
I know, I get it.
You know how academics break everything into like.
Yeah, I don't think I've ever taken a philosophy course. I mean, I did electrical engineering, so If math is logical, right? Isn't it? I don't know.
Yeah, So, basically in philosophy they kind of blend like philosophy with mathematics. It's sort of this Anyway,.
I'm very curious though. I mean, maybe for another podcast, but Oh, no, maybe not. I mean, you're writing a book about it or come into a bookstore near you.
Except I have a feeling most people are going to be like, what? Like I don't.
It's catchy. Trust equations? I mean, it's good. I like it. You should roll with it.
Interesting. It's Yeah, so that I I've I'm sort of veering in that direction just because I feel like.
Me an equation that's a trust equation? Is there like are there actual equations for that?
It would need to be like, okay, what's the brand promise? Like what are the proof points for it? And then where does it how does it marry with.
What your key audience is looking for and or what they already think about you and what they care about. So, it's sort of it it's not going to be a direct application from that, but it is more about how do I mean, an example, let's see. I don't have one on the top of my head, cuz I'm.
That was really good what you just said though. That really hit. That I think that might have been.
Okay, cool.
Have been that really hit. Yeah, So, I like that. okay.
Yeah, because a lot of times the other problem is you don't understand what people care about. I mean I think you see this a lot in the tech world like oh, we can do this cool thing and we're going to do it. We're going to make a whole company for it and like here's your new SaaS product and but do people have a need like do they want that thing? Do they need it? How does it How is.
I think I know what you mean. I I've always intuitively kind of understood that you only report on things that you've done not on things you're going to do. Is that kind of what you're saying as well?
Yeah, it it's that but it's also like is what you're creating something that clients or customers are looking for or clients? Like do they need this thing? Or you just creating this cool tech because it's never been done and you had the idea for it and you're going to do it. A lot of times there's sort of like forward thrust and like VC money thrown at like this is a cool idea but then like but who want Does anybody want like do you want that? Like do you I mean do you want like I mean.
Yeah, but VCs don't fund things that have traction and blah Like I mean they're not like totally oblivious to that too, right? But I get what you mean. I mean.
No, but even like okay and not I mean I'm not a VC don't worry. I'm not like trying to take an insult to that one as well. I'm not trying to shame anybody but it's also like I saw that there was a patent you know, Apple's like working on like AirPods that can read your brain or whatever like BCI AirPod I was like does anybody want like what the hell like who does my Who's going to buy that? Like what's the Who's the target Is it Does anybody want that or is that just something that like somebody else wants you to make like.
Yeah. Like what Do you know what I mean? It's like so it's just like just thinking through like does Is this necessary and then what are people What is the target want you know, do they want it? Like is that something they're actually looking for and want to invest in?
I have a question for you. So, if AI answer engines take a quarter of search this year, is PR quietly becoming a distribution channel for machines rather than people?
Wait, say that one more time just so I can anchor cuz and.
No, I'm saying is if AI answer engines take a quarter of search this year, what I'm asking is PR quietly becoming a.
Distribution channel for machines rather than people? Cuz isn't it.
Because the primary sources are prioritized within AI search. so, it is still very important.
Yeah. So, and this is PR the PR does feed into SEO, but it also now it feeds into these AI responses. But a lot of times so, primary sources are you know, for example, you know, magazines, newspapers, etc. And they are prioritized often both in AI search and then search engine search. And so, what that means is that if your brand is in a lot of newspapers, magazines, podcasts that have that are rated with credibility, then it does increase the search findings and prioritizes the brand within both the search engine and/or the AI engine. So, it is important it means still very important even if we do have a little bit of friction right now happening with credibility within the media, it is still prioritized within search engines.
Got it. And yeah, I guess like help me land the plane with this one, April. It's been really interesting, by the way. And I do think this is important, right? Because the coding part's becoming super easy. And so, now distribution is kind of the name of the game, right?
And so, so I guess like take me 10 years out. Like does the word public relations still exist or like has the whole function become like something else?
I mean, that's really where trust relations came from. I don't know that I mean, that's that would be grandiose to think it's going to this term I coined is going to replace it. I don't think I mean, that's that would make me sound like.
Really, narcissistic, which I'm not. So, I mean, but I do think in general it's going to evolve into something at probably the word will still be there, but I mean, I think it already makes most people's stomach churn. I don't think a lot of people have a great emotional attachment or feeling. I think there's like a negative connotation to PR for a lot of people, which is unfortunate because it is still very, important for brand building and brand credibility and to your point, the search engine stuff. So, it's that's partly where Okay, well, let's just let's redefine the premise of it because it is still incredibly important because otherwise, how do people trust you?
Yeah.
Right? Otherwise, it's back to advertising or you saying whatever you want on your own blog or your own, you know, website or etc. So, it's still it's really important and that's partly why the credibility of the media is so, like really dear to me. Like real I'm real like I might be one of the most concerned about it in the entire nation because it's just like as a former journalist and as, you know, a PR person and like somebody who cares about startups having a chance to, you know, swing their elbows against Goliath and whatever. Like it's really important. and it's really important also just for, you know, trust objective trust in information that you're receiving, which I think were you know, without that you have a an existential crisis of sorts. So, it's like it's really important. it's really dear to my heart because it's not it's non-negotiable, I think, for a functional society.
I like how passionate you are about this. I I'm also rooting for the little guy, and that's why I love interviewing you know, startup founders mostly. And so, April thank you so much. Where do people learn more about Trust Relations? Where do they learn more about you?
So, I'm on LinkedIn as April Nicole White. you can find me there, or you can find me trustrelations.agency. And I'd love to speak with you. I'm always happy to talk to startups about where they are, even if they don't feel like they're ready to invest, but they just want to know more about it. I'm always happy to just kind of do a informational like, how could this help you? When would you be ready? What you know, what kind of investment do you need to be make you know, to make sure you're actually investing wisely, and like I said, I'm always very blunt if I don't think you are there capital-wise to have the cash flow fluidity necessary to make sense of it. So, always happy to have a chat.
Love it. All right, April, I'm going to bring this one to an end, and there's a whole bunch of people listening live. Thank you for tuning in, and I've got tons more interviews tomorrow, and even more the day after. So, stay tuned. Okay, April, hang on for 1 second. I'll bring this one to an end.
Yeah.
