What's up party people? My name is Sunonny Ray. This is the Sunny Ray Show. My next guest, his name is Jake Schuster. He's the founder and CEO of Gemini Sports, which builds predictive tools that let general managers and sporting directors interrogate their own data without a data scientist in the loop. With that said, I'm going to bring on Jake. how's it going, buddy? Hey Sunny, great to be with you today.
Yeah, nice to have you here. So, what are you building at Gemini Sports? What's the problem you're solving? Why should people care?
Yeah, so for those who, you know, have seen the film, Moneyball is a mobile app is the simplest way to understand what we do. And by that I mean, you know, in the complex world of player trading, in professional sports, where decisions are made that cost hundreds of millions of dollars at a time and have implications for much more than that. currently decision makers don't have access to the information they need and they're not able to make decisions with enough conviction, much less efficiency. and so what we do is we provide them that information in a mobile app as a single source of truth, source of record, co-pilot, whatever term you want to use. nowadays. that like any other technology of course inevitably has to be well powered by AI. So simply the tools that were out there were for a previous generation and we're here to make things easier.
That is really interesting and fascinating. So just to slow down a little bit, Jake, you did you did a PhD in sport science and ended up learning three programming languages. Like what question could you not answer without them? Yeah, I couldn't answer any question without a huge headache. And so what I found was really everything had to come together through silos. Everything had to you know be organized piece by piece very manually. And that just wasn't good enough because sports moves at a much faster pace than traditional engineering or analysis work happens. So we had to really understand how can we get to the critical roster decisions that we were making every day in my previous line of work in a manner that was actually not only fast and efficient but actually user friendly for the executive decision maker and they live on their phones.
Got it. Cool. And then working with the all blacks, what did you learn about how elite organizations actually make decisions under pressure? Yeah, I think the first thing to say is it's all about people. and so it might be the same answer if you ask me what does entrepreneurship teach you? it is really all about people. How can you have the best people around you that are working together, that are communicating, that trust each other, that genuinely you know, take critical feedback well and are able to push each other? A lot of people pay lip service to that and few organizations actually pull that off. So, first of all, you just having amazing people around and extraordinarily high caliber people around. I was just a an ant in that environment. I was just the young dumb student at that moment in my career. But really learning that when you have really competent people in a room who are all pushing in the same direction, magic can happen. the other thing is that you don't need to be fancy to succeed. the All Blacks are pretty famously I'll use a funny term agrarian. Like New Zealand is the size and population of Colorado and they're the most successful sports team on Earth in the history of professional sports. when you line it up against anything. Roger Federer, the Yankees, anything. They're the most successful sports team by one percentage. And so, how is that possible? It's not because they have the best facilities. It's not because they lift the best weights. it's because they actually work together and have a culture around it. and so really, this is going to sound cheesy, but it is about the fundamentals. What matters? Do you know what matters? Do you keep the important thing And do you focus on that? you work together.
I love it. That makes a lot of sense. the Dutch Olympic Federation, then Florida State, I guess. What changes about the data problem when you move between those worlds?
So, I'm so sorry. I know we're live. I just want to make sure that you're using the new document that we had gone over.
Oh. actually, you're right. Good point. My bad. Yeah.
My Okay. So, sorry. Yeah, I guess I guess that question's in there, too, right? What changes about the theater problem? Yeah.
Yeah. Just a little pivot. Yeah. I mean like let's say what changes about the player trading problem, right? So, you know, the film Moneyball took place 25 years ago now. And really not that much has changed outside of the very upper crust of sports outside of baseball. And I don't even think we're tackling the problem in a different way, which is a real problem. it keeps coming back to how can we be clever and how can we be more niche and more hipster about the players we're looking for than everyone else and I just think that is old news. I think that that's table stakes. So the problem now is how can we actually outsmart the market and that's a not just a difference that's a distinction. So ultimately player trading in professional sports is not different from asset management in any other industry. So running a soccer club or a football club nowadays is a lot like running a hedge fund. And really you have to get the right price, not just the right asset. And you have to get at the right time not just the right purchase. And you have to sell at the right time. And so really what's changing is how clubs how executives at professional sports organizations especially in this era of a wave of institutional capital coming into professional sports are approaching the problem of making sure that their executives have the right information to make the right decisions repeatedly. Bearing in mind that you know I think about 8 billion was spent by Premier League clubs this past summer transfer window that just closed. Based on recent history, about 42% of those assets will be worth more money in two years after they were purchased. That's a terrible success rate.
Wow. Hey, Jake, you've said that, you're not an engineer. you're someone who sees a problem and knows like kind of the right people. So, how did you learn to find the right people?
Yeah, I think it's one of I think I have two skills in this life and I've often said that entrepreneurs don't need any talent. They don't need to be intelligent. They don't need connections. They just need to have very high pain tolerance. And so I think there are two skills that I have. One is very high pain tolerance and a high degree of stubbornness and perseverance within me. and the other is the ability to get great people in a room together and to be passionate enough about my mission that I guess people want to join us and so ultimately like you've heard all the heristics of Steve Jobs saying, you know, hire great people and get out of their way, right? And it's pretty darn true. So I think ultimately one of the things that a leader at a startup can do to be effective for their company is be really ruthless and really adamant about the quality of people that they want to have working for them and that's really hard to do because we also have to be very thrifty and we have to get more out of less and those things are in direct opposition to each other. So when I find out the answer to that I'll let you know. but I can definitely say I think being a nontechnical founder has been a massive advantage for me. There's obviously a lot of disadvantages like many investors just won't take you seriously. but I think if I was the engineer who had created the product from scratch myself, I'd have a lot of sunk cost bias about it. I would have a lot of subconscious jealousy about bringing in other engineers and that happens at almost every company, right? Whereas I know what I don't know and I always have from day one. And so I've brought in the people who can help bring my vision to life. I mean, isn't the Well, I mean, isn't aren't we like in the AI era where it's like the idea the era of the idea guy? Like I mean,.
Yeah. So, you're right. I guess I kind of forgot that when saying my point because it's really funny to me, Sunny, that concept did not exist when I started this. just before, right? We raised our first institutional capital like June 2022 when, you know, this is a different product, you know, but still the same vision in my head. And so for me, it's funny now that anyone can vibe code a prototype and I vibe code the prototypes of a lot of our new features, but back in the day, people said a solo nontechnical founder, forget it.
Hey, you know, a decade of travel inside professional sport is what pushed you to start something, I guess. Like what was that last straw?
In terms of the burnout?
Yeah. probably two things. One, I I booked to be in completely the wrong country for a meeting. so that was when I knew I think I I'd kind of lost track of things. but no, the bigger one was I missed my grandfather's funeral and he was my father figure and that was not fun. And at the time I convinced myself that I'd spent great time with him in the last few months of his life and it was just one of those things that I wouldn't be able to be there. And now I'm thinking, what was I doing? so I don't think I realized that until some months later, but yeah, that was probably it. It's a great question.
Thanks for sharing. in your coaching years, like who did you have to convince before anything you recommended actually got used?
Yeah, ultimately you have to show that something makes a difference. so you have to start small. And I think that that's a pretty good parallel for any kind of innovation where there's a time and a place to sell the big idea and the big disruption. But the reality is most people aren't ready for it. you know, I don't think Steve Jobs, you know, went out there to consumers and said, "We're going to completely change the way a phone operates and its place in society." He went out and if you look at some of the product releases, he said, "I'm going to show you a bigger screen so you can read the entire front page of the New York Times, whereas you can't on another device." So, he started small and then he convinced people over time.
Yeah, that really resonates. so I guess what did what did practitioners keep asking you for that no vendor, you know, in the market was willing to build?
Yeah, ease of use. and having all the information in one place. And I know I beat those drums over and over, so forgive me, but I think really it's kind of crazy to me how people can say with a straight face that they have an adequate setup. but then they'll show you three different screens that are open only on desktop and those silos stay where they are and they're not mixing together. And if you're making $100 million player trading decisions, you better have all the information on one screen. I don't care what the excuse is. And then user experience, which I just keep coming back to, and I recognize that like I don't want to say I'm the canary in the coal mine, but I recognize that I care about this more than almost anyone else I know. and decision makers at football clubs, at soccer teams, they live on WhatsApp. They live in their phone. They're rarely sat at a desk. They're always on the move. They're in an agent's office. They're not on an airplane in the back of an Uber and they're not pulling out their laptop there. They're just not they're going to be on their phones. And so all the critical decisions that they need to make have to be able to happen there. So whether they're pulling information on a player, understanding, you know, imagination of the market conditions, receiving information from an agent to player agent and trying to pull that through and make something of it, they have to be able to do that on their phone. They cannot wait till they get home or get to their desk. and everyone seems to be so busy convincing everyone how clever they are without caring at all about helping people be organized. So I'm just happy to zig when others zag.
Yeah, I like that. okay. the you're you compare like hiring more data scientists to asking Henry Ford for a faster horse. I guess like when did that stop being a joke and become like the company?
Yeah, I think this comes back to actually the last thing I said there. So it's a perfect question where you know being clever having the best and look I have many wonderful relationships with many great data scientists in this space and in football analytics and hire some of the best ones myself but having the best model to tell you whether a player is good at their sport compared to the fifth best model probably means that the 13th ranked player is now ranked 14th in your list. And it's just it's actually not going to make a difference in your decision. having the right information does. And you know, I've never met a football club that would rather have a data engineer or an application developer than a football analyst. And these football clubs, these soccer teams should be doing research. They should be pulling up ad hoc things that the executives, you know, need. They should be doing unique research and bespoke executive dashboards that matter only to them. They should not be trying to build data infrastructure. They should not be trying to build core workflows of player trading and market mapping and squad planning. That's for a soft for a company to do. And the fact that you can v code a dashboard nowadays actually only compounds that fact because the logic for SAS remains the same. Just because you could try to build something doesn't mean you should yourself.
That really resonates and your line is that you put the models in their hands and they do not rely on you. like what breaks in a club when they do rely on a vendor?
Yeah. I mean, I think we're always going to rely on vendors. So, I've always kind of chuckled at this argument of building in-house, not only because it's extremely cost prohibitive and inefficient. It takes way too long to deliver results. but whether you're using your own in-house built models, our models, native models from a consultant, it doesn't matter. We're just the interface. Yeah, we have great models, but we're just the interface and the workflows. it's funny how far I find soccer to be behind on this one. because in like the NFL or ice hockey or in baseball, there's a dozen different models kicking around. Everyone's comparing them to each other. Whereas it becomes this, you know what, measuring contest among vendors in the football tech space. And it's just kind of silly. So, we're all about the workflows. You're going to have to rely on vendors. You rely on Nike to provide you shoes. You rely on, you know, whoever to provide you a soccer ball. and someone else to plant the grass on your pitch and you're always going to have to use vendors for something. so I'm not sure why this IP part becomes so sensitive to people because it's really again just about having the right information in the right place.
You guys insist on explanability so a you know sporting director can see how a prediction was made. Like what happened the first time a black box gave good advice nobody used?
Yeah. you know, it's amazing how we can go back and forth between not trusting anything we see and then trusting something way too much. So, by that I mean there's often skepticism when anything new comes on the market. And then people get so used to seeing something that they're kind of attached to it even if it doesn't make sense anymore. And again, you have to look at different ways of viewing something and of rating something and then just compare them as part of the tapestry of any key decision. with regards to explanability, I was talking about this morning with one of our customers. You know, 72, 78, whatever a player rating is, or whatever any kind of KPI is, it actually doesn't matter. What matters is, are you fourth in your league and do you want to be top four in your league? And how, you know, what's the margin you have over fifth? And really the relativity and you know, the ranking or rating of something is what matters, not any arbitrary number. And I'm kind of amazed how poor most products are at contextualizing that and allowing the user to customize their views. and to that matter, any executive has to be able to understand what they're saying and present to their board or whoever they answer to why something is what it is. And that like that's just not something that it's something that's very underserved, Sunny. And so we go out of our way to have feature explanation charts and robust documentation because a lot of people hide behind those black boxes and say, "Oh, I've got the best and the fanciest algorithm and I'm going to market the heck out of it." And we say, "Here's what we've got and you're welcome to go and try and copy it because by the time you do, we're going to be way ahead."
And who is your ideal customer, Jake? Yeah, typically clubs who have taken some steps themselves towards modernizing technologically and they know that they want to use technology to inform not dictate but inform their player trading decisions. So, if you're a club that does all of your player trading through WhatsApp conversations with agents and ignores your scouts and doesn't even hire analysts, we're probably not a fit for you. though there's a lot of clubs like that the second they get bought by institutional capital from the states or otherwise they bring in someone like us to modernize. But if you're a club that's already in a modern direction and you know that you need technology and you need a good partner that comes from the world of AI to guide you and to be your shepherd into this new era, then we're a great fit. If you have a lot of sunk cost bias into things you've tried to do yourself, we're probably not a fit. If you're self-aware and are ready to look at different options, then we can be a lot of help. Yeah, got it. Can you give me the squad planning hub in a minute? Like a sporting director sits down like what does he actually do?
Yeah. I mean, what we find with this one is really if you're logging in every morning, it shouldn't take until lunchtime to know what's going on, right? You should actually know by the time you finish your morning coffee, what's changed since I last opened my phone? Who do I need to get back to? And what do I need to action before it's too late? Right? Those are probably the three things. and from that I can take action. I can understand has anything changed in the market? Are there any new opportunities I need to jump on? what do I need to dig deeper into? What's on my desk? What am I the blocker for? Right? It's no different than being a CEO of a startup. You wake up in the morning. What are people waiting on me for? So maybe it's, hey, this player, we're in love with them. Agent said they'll give us first right of refusal. We need you to check out this dossier and make a note and call the agent or call the club or call their parents before anyone else does. and so ultimately in squad planning, you have to understand the different news and the different scenarios and execute on it quickly.
Cool. I the time kind of got away from me, Jake, and we had a little bit of a late start, too. So, maybe we'll come back for a part two. Maybe just yeah, help me land the plane. Where do people learn more about you? Where do people learn more about the company?
Geminisports.ai or Jakeisports.ai.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jake. This is really, exciting. And we have bunch of people listening live almost 20 people. Thank you all for syncing with us. And until next time, yeah, Jake, hang back for one minute. I'll bring the stream to an end.
