What's up party people? My name is Sunny Ray. This is Sunny Ray Show. My next guest, her name is Helen Root ledge. She's going to explain why AI made content is cheap but real learning still depends on practice feedback and better ways to measure judgment. With that said, I'm going to bring Helen on. Helen, where in the world are you calling in from?
Hi, Sunny. I'm in Leicester in the Midlands in the UK.
Cool. Well, nice to have you here with us. let's dive right into it. What is totem learning and I guess like what what's the problem you're solving? Why should the world care? Let's go right in the deep end.
Let's just jump right in. Yeah. So, Totem Learning exists to bring together the world of entertainment games and learning and bring those two things together. and they might not seem like natural bed fellows, but there's an awful lot that goes into game design that's grounded in psychology and behavioral sciences. And it's the same psychology and behavioral science that's used in learning. So, there's a huge amount of overlap. So, we create safe practice spaces for people to learn skills, practice skills, try things out. and it's all completely safe because it's all virtual. I love that. Like education, entertainment, allin-one,.
Gamifying. I've been I've been thinking a lot about this lately as well. So, you've said you built a career in learning because.
Essentially because you said that traditional education, you know, didn't work for you. Like what specifically was it that didn't work?
Yeah. So, I'm sure like for a lot of people I don't know at school you're asked to remember a huge amount. A lot of your lessons are just someone downloading information to you. and that information is out of context to anything in the real world. So, you know, all of mathematics is abstract. You don't relate it to anything about financial planning or managing mortgages or credit cards or anything like that. So it's very difficult to contextualize the information that you get and bring it into the real world. And I we from psychology we know our memories are really quite poor. And that was one of the things I really struggled with all this download of information and trying to retain that information in my mind and then recall it. like I say without any context. and I think we hear that from a lot of people, especially young children in school today, that lack of context for their learning, is really quite challenging for them.
Yeah, that really resonates as well. Makes a lot of sense. So you said you I guess you went to Alberte through clearing and landed in a city with a games culture I guess. Like when did psychology and games become one thing for you?
Yeah. So it was a journey. So yeah, I I ended up in Dundy in Scotland completely by well through I don't know, you could call it fate perhaps, but since I was really young, I have adored psychology. I was 12 when I first got into it. I love learning about the brain. I always was also born in the 80s, so played a lot of Nintendo Entertainment System at home, you know, and I think from a really young age, I knew there was something really different about the way that games operate. they draw you into the world and they you remember the characters, the environments, the story lines, the missions that you're going on. And the more I learned about psychology over the years through my studies and being immersed in this games culture that was in Alberta Dundee and it just started to click and for the degrees in the UK you have to do a final year research study and I naturally wanted to do something around memory and gaming. and yeah, I was originally going to try and influence people's sleep by getting them to play Tetris, but my mentor said that probably isn't going to lead to a very good career. So, I had to switch track a little bit, but.
Yeah, it was kind of just being in this melting pot of yeah, behavioral science and gaming and it just came together.
That is fascinating. So, you wrote the book before you were the CEO, I guess. Like, what did writing it force you to work out?
Yeah. So, writing a book that been on my bucket list forever and it really made me sit back and think like, how am I going to explain this to a really large audience? Because gaming's always had this reputation of it's something for young kids and you know people stuck in their bedrooms in the curtains closed and it's an isolating activity and there's you know also a lot of bad press about the antisocial behaviors that can come from gaming but there's a huge positive side. So it was like how do I get that across and how do I help people understand the psychology that goes into these games? So I had to really distill that down into because.
You know when you get into scientific papers they're quite heavy and quite difficult to read. So it's how do you take that and lighten it up to make it understandable. and then the other thing I really wanted to do with the book was to open up the black box of game and simulation development because you know things like overnight successes like Angry Birds and Flappy Bird and various things they weren't really overnight successes but there's a real I say misunderstanding that making games is quite easy but it's actually really quite difficult. there's a lot of subtlety, a lot of nuance that goes into it. and they're quite intricate processes as well. So, I wanted to like lift the curtain as to what was going on. So, I had to take all of that and trying to distill it into frameworks and systems and processes that people outside of the games industry could take and then action in their work. So trying to like create that translation I suppose between the two worlds of psychology and game creation into a whole new world of learning and development.
And at Alberte you researched teams working online versus in person like what did that research show you Helen?
Yeah so that was fascinating. So I compared well we called it in the day computer mediated communication to face So this was before the days of messenger and you know Skype and things. and what was really fascinating was the teams that operated in the virtual side with the computer communication they did just as well as the teams who were communicating face to face and they were solving problems and working together and trying to the concept was they had to escape an island that they had crashlanded on. bit like Lost and Crystal Maze kind of merged together. but the thing that really fascinated me was that in the face toface teams, the loudest voices got the most attention and they directed the teams and they just became the natural leader of the group. But in the computer-based communication, it became a lot more equal. So the quieter people stepped up and they were listened to and they felt they had a platform to really make their voice heard. So they were equal in efficiency but in terms of I suppose equity amongst the team members. The computer based communication really facilitated that. and I just found that absolutely fascinating and that took me down the path of games being a leveler for people when they're learning.
That's big. And then like which ideas or people shaped how you know design a simulation?
Oh, it's a really good question. I don't think there's one particular idea or a particular person. I think the fields of, you know, constructivist psychology and behavioral psychology have really helped me understand what's going on in people's minds when they're playing games. and then, you know, I have to obviously credit to all the game creators out there as well from, you know, the games that I've played that have really inspired me and opened my eyes to what's possible. so again, it's just been, I suppose, an amalgamation of all of these influences over the years. really.
Understood. you know 22 years in like what what's still broken about the way a company decides its people need training at all.
Yeah. So there's several things I think that are broken. learning and development are still very much I think at the wrong end of the process. They are asked to create a course on leadership or communication or a particular process within the business but that is completely disconnected from the strategy of the business. Often not for every organization but oftent times it's not driven by what the business wants to achieve in the long run. And so if learning and development could connect more strongly to the business strategy. Where are we going? what do we want to achieve? What skills do we need to have to get there? What capabilities do we need to develop? And then let's decide what we're actually going to train on. that's one of the biggest things I think is broken. I mean, there's still a massive reliance on generic course libraries. which I think you know what's that saying that you know I'm trying to think what it is now. it's about master of trades. I can't think of what it is now. Sorry.
Is it the master of whatever? The master of none or whatever that.
Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I think people and then there's so these generic libraries, they tick a box. They get you content, but they're not quite hitting the mark because again that context that we talked about at the start in education school is missing. The context of your day job is not there. and then the other thing that's really broken is the data side. you know the way the courses are set up was we're just not measuring the right things that can lead to knowing whether we're our actual work is making any difference. So you know courses are set up in learning management systems to record completion and a score. What does that tell you about capability?
Not very much.
Probably not a whole lot. Yeah. So I guess before Aurora like when a bank or an energy company came to totem like how did they usually find you in the first place?
So a lot of our a lot of our clients have come through partners and referrals and the wider network. so we have specific niche channel partners that we work with. always open to meeting more of those as well if there's anyone listening that wants to explore that. but yeah I think a lot of it is built on trust because obviously a lot it's a big step really big step to build a serious game or simulation for a big organization there's a lot of trust there that needs to get developed so yeah I mean we do a lot of work on LinkedIn we do a lot of thought leadership and publishing but oftent time it is through the network.
And you know your line is that we keep giving people information and calling it learning like when did that stop being acceptable to you? I think I've accepted it for a really long time, but I feel like this is the year with the onslaught of AI and especially with announcements recently from some of the big e-learning organizations that you can put a document in and create a course in fourline prompt, you know, and create something that people can go through. It's still the same old problem. and I just want to call time on it because creating good learning material is not easy and we're kind of falling into the trap of I think seeing AI as a bit of a savior of saving us time and thinking well you know a lot of organizations view learning as a cost center rather than a value driver and a lot of organizations are looking at how can we cut headcount how can we reduce effort in learning and they see AI as the answer. So, I think I've been quiet on it for a little bit too long and calling time on it this year because I've seen I mean, it's wonderful that everyone can create things now, but we're all getting a little bit sick of the AI slop that's out there. And it's like we still need to see the human in the loop for what is fundamentally one of the most important parts that a business is ever going to do is to train their people. because if you don't train your people, it's going to impact your business. They're going to leave and your customers are going to be unsatisfied at the end of the day. It's such an important function that's currently on the path to automation which really worries me.
And then you say we would never expect someone to learn to drive from a presentation, right? So why does business accept exactly that?
Yeah, it's a tough one. I think it's because learning is seen as a cost center rather than this value driver. it's seen as something often that we have to offer, but it's not really why we got into business in the first place. and also because in a lot of industries, and I might get into trouble for saying this, but a lot of industries rely on things like compliance training. is really important but they do it because they have to and they do it to protect themselves. So, I think there's a there's an element of protectionism going on of saying, well, we've put the course on the LMS and it's there and we've done it. We've given you the thing whether you it's any good or not or you use it or not, that's not our problem. It's there. and yeah, I think there's a big disconnect as well between understanding the value of a well-trained workforce with, you know, personalized learning, adaptive learning, and real practice to the impact that can have on the business itself. I think we need to have more shouting about more great case studies about the impact that really good learning can have.
Yeah. And I was going to ask you so like information creates like understanding right and then practice creates capability.
Feedback closes the gap right so which of those three is is missing most often.
I'd say practice you know I we are not short on knowledge so easy to get nowadays but real good practice is often missing so a lot of learning and development teams stop at the knowledge part. They don't have the capability to create lots of practice. that hasn't really been that available to date and then the feedback is kind of reliant on the practice. You need to do the practice to get the really in-depth feedback from that because again otherwise you can't really feed back on just a knowledge piece. so 100% I would choose practice out of those three. Yeah, that probably resonates my own experience as well. I was going to say, you know, content is abundant, right? Like practice is not like what does that mean for everyone selling courses right now?
Yeah. It's a big challenge because you know it it's it's disrupted a lot of people's plans. and I think the generic course libraries will be in trouble because everyone can access I mean for a long time obviously we've had Google for a long time where you can search something and get an answer but now it can be presented in the context of your workplace and in a report and we can take it so much further with AI. so I do think those off-the-shelf generic libraries won't be around too much longer or they they'll need to adapt. and then, you know, obviously with course creation tools coming on board, I mean, anyone with Claude can make an e-learning course now, but what they still have going for them is the human judgment factor. The human judgment about what makes a good learning course. because we still need e-learning, we still need digital solutions, we still need we obviously need practice, we need coaching, we need all different types of learning to make a really good offering. but I do think the days of static fixed content is behind us.
Yeah. probably a good thing I guess like so Totem has run on its own money since 2017. Does launching a platform change whether you would ever I don't know take or consider outside investment?
Yeah. So we we've run without investment for a long time now. And you know I think I wouldn't be opposed to looking at it as a route. I think you have to just be really clear on what the investment is for. And I know it can accelerate growth and kind of you know enhance marketing and various different things but you got to balance that against where you want to take the company you know what what's my vision of the company and where do I want to go with it so not opposed to it at all I think it would have to be with the right people you know with the right purpose behind them because I think the why that I'm doing this is so close to my heart that I need to have alignment with an investor that they were in it for the same reasons.
Yeah. And not always easy to find either, right? So,.
Yeah. Can you explain Aurora to like a maybe a head of learning like what do they see that they maybe could not see before?
Yeah. So, Aurora is a workplace simulation platform. So it enables us to create very realistic scenario-based learning very quickly. where we ask people to make certain decisions and each decision they have to make in the system is linked to a key performance indicator that's important to the business. And so as people go through the simulation, we can gather data around how they're making decisions, what they're prioritizing, where their focus is, maybe what they're not addressing, and we can capture all of that really rich information. And we have that presented in our analytics dashboard. And what that gives you is a view on your your skills gaps in a cohort that have gone through the simulation. as well as on an individual level. And what we all want in learning and development teams is we want people performing at optimal levels all the time. So we want to we what we see is performance variance. That's what we call it. So you have some really great top performers and some really poor performers and people in the middle. We want to move everybody up to the top level and we obviously do that through training and we want to do that consistently. training is often at the whim of how good the trainer is or how good the scenarios are or there's lots of factors that influence it. And with a sim, you can standardize all of that and roll it out to your whole organization. So you reduce the uncertainty, let's say, of the delivery method. So you get all this data that shows you about your skills gaps, your performance variance across your cohort. And then you can drill down into individual team members and see it on their level as well. So you can start to spot patterns and trends amongst the people and that data enables you to then it gives you that I suppose business insight that business intelligence about where then you need to spend your budgets because L & D budgets are shrinking. They're always being asked to do more with less but there's still a lot of guesswork that happens with budget allocation of where do I need to spend to really train my people. So Aurora can give you that insight. and it also gives us an audit trail. So every because everything is tracked you know from a compliance point of view we can see everyone making the decision as they go through. So it's really a simulation platform that gives you a huge amount of insight and intelligence.
Got it. And you know Aurora is a it's a platform rather than a like a bespoke build, right?
Like when you want the right heads of learning to hear about it like what do you actually do? That's a great question. Yeah. Yeah. What do I do? I obviously I I'm very active on social networks and trying to connect to people and showcase what what we can actually do. I say we have some channel partners so they are bringing us into their offering almost as our route to market. we're going to be running some webinars because we're going to be launching Aurora at the end of September. So, look out for some webinars coming to see it in action. and yeah, take it everywhere, show it to everybody because you never know who somebody knows. And so, yeah, open to everything. But no, we've been doing a lot of thought leadership as well. So, we've got a white paper coming out really about performance readiness. we had a piece in the Independent a couple weeks ago, which is a big national newspaper in the UK. And yeah, trying to get the message out there about what we can do to help organizations really prove impact.
So, thank you for going over a little bit with me. A lot of listeners as well right now listening live. So, thank you, Helen. the I guess the next 90 days are launching Aurora and landing first customers and so you're leading it yourself, right? So what does success look like let's say by Christmas?
Yeah, by Christmas I'm hoping we're like I say launching at the end of September. We're launching with a very special offer. The first 10 people to book onto an Aurora simulation will get it at a discounted rate, 50% discount. So they'll get it for £10,000 and they'll get a fully built simulation with our expert designers for 10K that will give them data immediately on on how their people are thinking and behaving. So the value of that is absolutely immense. So yeah, by Christmas all those slots will be taken. the Sims will be operational and my those 10 organizations will be seeing a lot of value, a huge amount of value by Christmas.
Helen, where do people learn more about the project where they learn more about you and yeah, after that we'll land the plane.
Yeah. No, absolutely. Best place to go is our website on totemlearning.com or feel free to reach out, connect me on LinkedIn. I love to meet new people. so yeah, website or LinkedIn are the best places.
You said totemlearning.com, right? I got it right there. That's right. Okay, cool.
Yes.
All right. Thank you so much. And again, thank you all for tuning in. Appreciate you so much. and yeah, until next time. And Helen, hang out for one minute. I'll bring the stream to an end.
We'll do.
